Fish with History! Lobe-fins, Ganoid scales, Bony Tongues, Cartilage skeletons!

[sbell]

is there an Amia calva in the fossil fish set?

Click the link that was in my post--but no, there is not.

I see you're a fish fanatic. Yes, maybe the two new species should have been reason enough, but now I'm glad was hesitating .

Fun fact--I am going back and forth with them trying to be convincing about adding a paddlefish in the next revision of this box--so, you know, anyone else who thinks we need one (EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD! THIS FORUM! THIS PLANET WHO HAS TOY FISH!) go like the Colorata page, find the thread (it's pretty new still) and chime in!

Maybe you can post a link here?

The conversation can be found here

What's really awesome? While apparently a paddlefish has not crossed their mind, a Pantodon figure has! Which would be just as great! Of course, I threw out a few more names too (African & South American lungfishes, Silver arowana, ropefish). But if they add any others, it will be awesome. It will also mean that I have a lot more versions of the set

[sauroid]

it would be awesome if any of the japanese brands would put out all Polypterid, Osteoglossid, etc. sets.

[Newt]

I'm thinking ahead to some possible future projects.  So, let's say I were to offer a line of primitive fish. What would you like to see?


Species?


Size/scale?


Price point?


Material?


(On the last two, keep in mind I can't offer things as cheaply, or in the same range of materials, as a major manufacturer).

[sbell]

I'm thinking ahead to some possible future projects.  So, let's say I were to offer a line of primitive fish. What would you like to see?


Species?


Size/scale?


Price point?


Material?


(On the last two, keep in mind I can't offer things as cheaply, or in the same range of materials, as a major manufacturer).

Ha! Careful what you ask...some of us have had A LOT of thought on this (okay, me. I have. I have thought about it a lot. And likely pestered many people on it...)

Anyway, to your considerations:

Species?
The most thought has gone here. Of the ones I can think of currently--and I am mostly going to stick with fish that suit the theme of this thread:

The bichirs and ropefish, Polypterids: P. ornatipinnis, P. senegalus or P. delhezi, P. bichir or P. congicus, P. mokelembembe, Erpetoichthys calabaricus. Gives a good range of the morphologies (and only P. endlicheri has been done by anyone). Plus, a good range of colouring as well. Or just do all of the species to scale...that would be great too.

Bowfin, Amia calva. Nobody makes this poor fish and it's so neat. Plus a great one for dinosaur dioramas

Gars--there are a few out there (see throughout this thread) but not enough! Everybody makes alligator gars, but we could stand to see all 7 species (alligator, cuban, tropical, longnose, shortnose, florida, spotted). Replica Toy Fish had plans to release such a set of toys, but they appear permanently delayed (how I hope that's not true).

Sturgeons: I wouldn't know where to begin. There are a few, but why not others? Maybe a White or Green sturgeon, sterlet, something like that.

Paddlefish: Definitely! Kaiyodo Aquatales appears to be putting one out this year, but so what? Or make the Chinese species (even if it's extinct now--Never Forget!).

Lungfish: Any Protopterid (African lungfish) or Lepidosirenid (the South American species). Again, there are some range of colours in the African species; the American species is pretty straight forward. There are lots of the Australian species, but you could always do one to round out the family.

Osteoglossiformes: Several families here. Among the osteoglossids (arowanas) there are two species that are done to death--the Asian arowana (Scleropages formosus) and the Pirarucu (usually Arapaima gigas). So that means there are lots of others waiting to be done: South American Osteoglossum (Silver or Black arowana); African Arowana (Heterotis niloticus); Australian arowana (Scleropages jardinii or S. leichardti). There are one or two of these done, but they are either really rare or not very good.

In the other osteoglossomorph families, there is lots of variety that really just needs to be made--Pantodon, the freshwater butterflyfish; Gymnarchus, the Aba or African knifefish; the mormyrid Gnathonemus petersii, Elephantnose fish (there are others, but it is the best known and very distinctive); the featherback knifefish Notopteridae (again, well known and distinct markings on some). There's also the mooneye, but it's kind of boring (even if it is the only living North American osteoglossomorph).

Next group, Gymnotiformes, the South American electric knifefishes. Not as easy to really list out here. The electric eel is a given, and some of the more familiar aquarium species, like the apternotid black ghost knife and sternopygid glass knifefish. There are a number of other ones with variable morphology and patterns.

Final group that I'll list--mastacembelid eels. Tiretrack eels, Peacock eels and Fire eels are fairly common aquarium fish, but there is only one figure I know of, and that should be changed!

I can only apologize by saying--you asked!

Size/scale?

I personally a fan of smaller size figures--3"-5" figures, so that I can fit them! Plus, they fit into dioramas and scenes better that way--it's hard to find an appropriate crocodile when the lungfish or bichir is 6" long!

But if there is a smaller number, then some nice models in the 6" to 8" range would ne cool (so, for some, life size!)

Price point?

Again, I would say that it depends on the size, material, format and range of the series. If they are made as mid-size toys out of a plastic or something, maybe 10-15 each; large resin one-piece models would probably be much more.  Modest, 3" size models made in resin or something similar might be similar in expected price to, say, Primaeval Designs figures--big ones are about $30. But I'm really bad at determining that sort of thing.

Material?

Depends on if these are models, toys, or something in between like a Kaiyodo Aquatales. Something that allows good detail, and some durability, but nothing too expensive or hard to work with. Again, this sort of thing is a little beyond me. I've seen your other work--whatever you use seems to work!

[Newt]

Wow, thanks for all the input, SBell!


Your species suggestions are certainly in line with what I think would be fun to make; I'm just not too familiar with the whole collectible scene and what's available already, so your info is extremely valuable there. 


Bowfins, gars, and polypterids in particular are old favorites of mine.  I've snorkeled with Amia (watching a male guarding his brood in a shallow swamp is an unforgettable experience) and three species of Lepisosteus, and have owned a few Erpetoichthys and Polypterus over the years (though none currently- I've had to cut back on aquaria). 


Sturgeons- I'd have to include some of my local shovelnoses in any sturgeon set, but otherwise I'm wide open.  If I do a set of fish all at the same scale, the super-size sturgeons would be problematic, so I might stick to smaller species.   


There are few enough lungfishes, notopterids, and osteoglossids that it would be good to put out a figure at least of each genus.  Pantodon is a given.  Gymnarchus would be fun, if I can find adequate reference.  Mormyrids are simultaneously the most diverse and least known (at least to me) of these groups.  I'll have to think about them some more.


Gymnotiforms are weird.  Seriously weird.  But I don't think I'd include them in such a set, since they're taxonomically closer to catfish and characins.  I would probably exclude elopomorphs too; they deserve a series of their own.


Let's see what we've got so far:
Medium scale (for fish ca. 1 ft/0.3 m to 6 ft/2 m long)


Lepidosiren
Neoceratodus
Protopterus


Erpetoichthys
Polypterus - maybe 3 species to start with?


Polyodon


sterlet
shovelnose sturgeon
Pseudoscaphirhynchus sp.


Amia


Lepisosteus - longnose and one of the others (the other three are so similar, I could probably just use one base figure with varying paint schemes)
Atractosteus - the two smaller species


Gymnarchus


Chitala
Notopterus
Papyrocranus
Xenomystus


Mormyrus sp?


Osteoglossum
Scleropages
Heterotis


That's about 25 species.


Plus two more series in different scales for small (Pantodon, Hiodon, various mormyrids) and large (pirarucu, Psephurus, alligator gar, big sturgeons).


That's a lot of sculptures!  I need to winnow it down some more.

[Newt]

I like the idea of producing as many figures as possible in the same scale.  If I went with, say, 1:12, that would produce figures in the range 2" to 5" for the bulk of these species; I could produce the bigger species at this same scale, they'd just be big and expensive.  Smaller species would have to be at a different scale; I'm not going to try making any centimeter-long sculptures.  Would it be preferable to instead constrain the figures to similar sizes (and therefore prices) rather than the same scale?


I would like to aim for about $20-30 per figure and a fairly high standard of reproduction.   I would be casting and painting each one myself, so pricing them like toys would be unfeasible.  Material used will depend on cost of material vs. price point of figure, and I haven't done enough research on that yet.  I haven't yet made anything commercially, so this is all new ground for me!  Hopefully I can manage to follow through with this, though, and offer some primitive fish before the end of the year. 

*Edit* sorry if my posts are inappropriate for this thread.  Should I start a new thread?

[sbell]

I like the idea of producing as many figures as possible in the same scale.  If I went with, say, 1:12, that would produce figures in the range 2" to 5" for the bulk of these species; I could produce the bigger species at this same scale, they'd just be big and expensive.  Smaller species would have to be at a different scale; I'm not going to try making any centimeter-long sculptures.  Would it be preferable to instead constrain the figures to similar sizes (and therefore prices) rather than the same scale?


I would like to aim for about $20-30 per figure and a fairly high standard of reproduction.   I would be casting and painting each one myself, so pricing them like toys would be unfeasible.  Material used will depend on cost of material vs. price point of figure, and I haven't done enough research on that yet.  I haven't yet made anything commercially, so this is all new ground for me!  Hopefully I can manage to follow through with this, though, and offer some primitive fish before the end of the year.

I help where I can, especially when I am selfishly invested!

I think that the price might be affected by the size of the range--36 figures at $30 each could be problematic. For some. For some of us, I just hope my wife is understanding...

Personally, I think that sizing them all more or less the same may be a better choice. It keeps a consistency, and there is a precedent of making fish figures this way--Replica Toy fish makes all of the fish in the same sizes (in two lines, a 3" and a 6"). Yuijn of Japan also made some wide ranging fish sets, all of which were 3" or so as well. So maybe something in the middle, 4" to 5", a little larger for better detail, with maybe a few big ones to represent the big species?

The only other Prehistoric Fish set that is really comparable would be the Colorata [ur=http://www.colorata.com/fs/colorata/figurebox/figurebox_es1l]Fossil Fishes Box[/url]. In that one, they are more or less the same size, with some variation that reflects the ones that are substantially larger (the group picture on the site reflects their comparative sizes). They kind of fall in between same-scale figures and same-size figures, kind of skirting both!

And I guess there is also the question of bases/stands? Personally, I would say leave them with a small hole in the belly for people to mount them if they want to; or have them able to balance on their bellies.

As for the species list, If you really had to cut some species, I'd make the following suggestions:

1. (shudder) Sacrifice a couple Polypterus species at the outset, maybe start with an ornatipinnis or senegalus; as I said, the only one that has ever been made is P. endlicheri, so skip that morphology for now. Although they are my favourite of all fish, but in terms of figures, it's probably better for a little broader variety. For now...Currently, I only have two live ones--an albino senegal and a delhezi, plus I have a teugelsi coming (polypterids have been a favourite since I was 12)!

2. Maybe just one of the Atractosteus for now?

3. Maybe skip the Neoceratodus for now, there are lots of figures of them, and none of the other lungfish at all.

4. Maybe just one of the big notopterids? I'd say Chitala has a nicer pattern

It's hard to thin out past that (yeah, what did I suggest? 5 fewer? not so much help)--so many that need to be done! But some of the families/groups could be represented by just one if need be.

But that's what I think. Really, anything is good if they look good!

[sauroid]

royal Chitala and clown Chitala, same sculpt different patterns.

[Newt]

Thanks guys!  I started a new thread to avoid clogging this one up further.


http://animaltoyforum.com/index.php?topic=1005.new#new

[sbell]

Thanks guys!  I started a new thread to avoid clogging this one up further.


http://animaltoyforum.com/index.php?topic=1005.new#new

Maybe a moderator could copy over the relevant posts to that thread too.

[widukind]

Very very interesting, any of this figurines i newer saw before 

[sbell]

New polypterids! Live ones though...which is good too.

Polypterus teugelsi


Polypterus delhezi


I never thought I'd get a teugelsi--apparently they're more common than I'd expected (what with being named only a few years ago).

[widukind]

New polypterids! Live ones though...which is good too.

Polypterus teugelsi


Polypterus delhezi


I never thought I'd get a teugelsi--apparently they're more common than I'd expected (what with being named only a few years ago).

So very nice 

[sauroid]

very cool SBell. i keep a lot of bichirs too.

[Newt]

Nice acquisitions!

[sbell]

Yay, fossil fish in science news! And bichirs, no less! I remember talking to some McGill students about the research.

http://www.livescience.com/47582-unusual-fish-bichir-animal-evolution.html

I had ropefish in a low-water tank that would scoot along the wet ground sometimes. Nothing that fancy though.

[stemturtle]

Did you ever see a bichir walking? Well I did. 
Thanks, sbell, for posting the link to the video.
We are fascinated by early tetrapod evolution. 

[sbell]

Finally time to add to this thread!

First off, the 2014 Colorata Blue Asian Arowana:


Someday I'll get the group shot of the green (1st edition) red (2nd edition) and blue (current 3rd).

And now for something, completely different.

Featherfin knifefish:


Alligator (or other Atractosteus) gar:


Obviously 3D printed, and I have a lot of clean up and then painting to do...

[Jetoar]

Wonderful fishes figures  .

[sbell]

I have a few more!

One, a new addition--and pretty much a first as far as figures go. A 3D-painted paddlefish! Not yet painted though.



And a few of the previous 3d-printeds, now in painted and not-at-all lifelike form!

Tropical gar Atractosteus tropicus



Green Sturgeon Acipenser medirostris



Clown Knifefish Chitala ornatus (on a fancy base my daughter made)



It's nice to have an osteoglossiform that isn't an arapaima or a Scleropages arowana

(the other painted fish don't fit in this thread--but hopefully there will be a painted paddlefish soon).